Doctors and the pill

[Shem]

Gender and queer theory in every corner! It's like my Liberal Arts degree all over again...

[word]

To suggest that just because things are in the process of changing concerning this one small area within the entire field of social gender issues that confronting gender discrimination in society is outdated is wildly ignorant.

No, it's not. You saying that it is certainly does not make it so. In fact, I would argue that this one small area is a spectacular demonstration of how the form of gender discrimination that you are practicing is outdated! In fact, it is you who are ignorant... of the inevitable and powerful changes that are taking place right beneath your nose! The fact that you don't want to see these changes in certain situations does nothing to lessen their force.

Women are told how to act and dress and to be beautiful and flawless and everything that you also agreed is a problem, but they have almost NO control over those standards being shoved on them.

I did not agree that it is a problem! Stop putting words in my mouth! That is your opinion! And like so many, it is uninformed, foolish, ignorant drivel.

So yeah, dude, there's a patriarchy, and although I know all your neurons are firing right now about how these statistics are biased or how things will change in ten years so it's really not that much of a problem, completely separate from any of our original discussion of whether women overreact or not, it is stupidly irresponsible for you to be going around saying things that you clearly aren't educated about.

LOL. These things that you're blabbering about do, in fact, have very little to do with our original discussion, but it's funny that you bring it up this way, because, again, it's pretty obvious that you're the one reinforcing the negative stereotype of women who overreact emotionally, not I. You're stating that I'm being irresponsible, yet I am being encouraging, empowering, and logical, and you are being negative, prejudiced, and ignorant (you seem to like that word, so I'm gonna keep throwing it back at you when it's applicable, as it clearly is).

But don't cite "women under 35 make more than men" and arguments about patriarchical norms being outdated as facts because people on this forum seem to look up to you as some cool forum big brother or whatever and they'll actually believe you.

Why not? Just because you didn't like that statistic doesn't make it any less true. Hell, you agreed with everything I wrote. People on this forum don't look up to me; most of 'em think I'm an arse! You're as ignorant about the dynamics of this forum as you are this argument!

I DIDN'T refer to your advice as mansplaining.

Yeah, that's why I didn't claim you did.

I even SAID I don't think it was mansplaining. All I did was clarify what mansplaining means and say that it's a word that exists only in the context of privileged classes in a gender-biased society. You say that the words used are less important than their meaning but you seem to completely reject the idea that words have far-reaching meaning. They have powerful meaning that can normalize discriminatory and hateful views. People internalize this stuff. I get that you're really cool and self-aware and you would never let anything anyone said get to you, and maybe you are the one example ever of someone not being indoctrinated by their culture and society (you're not). But we are, to some extent, products of our environments. If it's totally cool and fine to call weak or incompetent men feminine terms to compare them to a woman, then yeah, little kids are going to grow up assuming that women are weak.

There you go again with the incredibly negative gender stereotypes. You REALLY hate women, don't you?

If in casual conversation women are referred to as being overemotional and if women are CONSTANTLY portrayed as being overemotional and oversensitive in TV, movies, and video games, then yeah people are going to assume that this is how the world works and women are overemotional. Your response to this seems to be that it's up to the woman to just get over this and not internalize it. But by doing that you take responsibility away from anyone who could actually say something inappropriate and sexist and put all of the responsibility on the person who I guess you think is weak enough to be hurt. Is it not a joint thing? Where women, like you rightly said, realize that they DON'T have to live by society's expectations and can be their own people, but also EVERYONE makes a concentrated effort not to perpetuate harmful stereotypes? That's what I support, and it's why I think discussions like this are important, because they make EVERYONE think critically about where they stand on these issues and how they want to change to make a society that they think is best.

I think these kinds of discussions are important, too, because they show people's true colors. Some people hide under a mantle of political correctness, shouting indignantly at perceived misbehavior, when in fact, THEY (read: YOU) are actually perpetuating the very negative stereotypes they claim to be fighting.

I imagine that there are a lot of women in your life that are important to you, family members, friends, lovers, whatever. Do you not think that if they read what you just said, that it discourages them from being open and honest with you about how something or someone makes them feel as a woman?

Of course not! Where would you get that idea? MG is watching me type this RIGHT NOW and agrees with me 100%. If someone says something that offends her, she'll let them know.

MG's opinion: "mcfly, you have obviously been hurt by a man in the past. That sucks, and seems to have really affected your view of them. You need to realize that there are a lot of really good people out there, of every type, and that seeing the world in such a black-and-white way is just hurtful to everyone."

It's about real problems that continue to exist even outside of social justice forums and political rallies.

Nope, it's not. It's about a single comment on a web forum that was misinterpreted by some sexist people who are projecting their own personal flaws on me and, therefor, assuming that I must be a sexist.

...you actually seem to believe that there isn't really a problem, and you deserve to know that there IS a problem.

Of course there is a problem... perpetuated by sexists like you.

If you don't know much about women's rights and the exact definition of certain feminist vocabulary, that's fine, but don't pretend that you do.

I obviously know a great deal more about equality than you.

Because people see this stuff, especially from someone who does normally give really great and solid advice about all sorts of stuff about JET, and they assume that "hey, I guess there really isn't so much of a problem, let's just give it ten years."

Change doesn't come from activists. It comes from mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, friends and family. It comes from people who educate themselves and do the right thing. It comes from people being willing to open their minds to new and exciting possibilities and hopes. Change is constant and real, and the people who will bring about that change are the ones who walk into the world with their eyes, hearts, and minds open to its reality. Only a fool would simply "assume that there isn't much of a problem" (not just in this context, but in the context of a great many world problems). Smart folks are gonna know that they need to be a part of the changes around them, that they need to be part of the solution, not a throw-back ranting about how unfair life is.

Just don't be ignorant.

I'm not. You are. Educate yourself, stop being part of the problem, and start being part of the solution!

[ladama]

But don't cite "women under 35 make more than men" and arguments about patriarchical norms being outdated as facts because people on this forum seem to look up to you as some cool forum big brother or whatever and they'll actually believe you.

Why not? Just because you didn't like that statistic doesn't make it any less true.

I'm just curious, what's your source for that statistic?

[Shem]

Change doesn't come from activists. It comes from mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, friends and family. It comes from people who educate themselves and do the right thing. It comes from people being willing to open their minds to new and exciting possibilities and hopes. Change is constant and real, and the people who will bring about that change are the ones who walk into the world with their eyes, hearts, and minds open to its reality. Only a fool would simply "assume that there isn't much of a problem" (not just in this context, but in the context of a great many world problems). Smart folks are gonna know that they need to be a part of the changes around them, that they need to be part of the solution, not a throw-back ranting about how unfair life is.

WORD.


I wasn't going to get involved but I just wanted to say that I think a single girl deciding to go and become a mechanic does FAR more to break down gender stereotypes and further equality than every single feminist theory textbook ever written.

Continuing to frame the debate in terms of "us and them", using gendered language like "mansplain" hasn't helped and WON'T help. Nor will trying to use statistical difference between groups as somehow meaningful. It doesn't MATTER if 90% of women choose to be stay-at-home mums and men earn more than women so long as women have the CHOICE to forge their own life path and the CHANCE to succeed. The problem, IMO, isn't discrimination (which is recognising differences) rather it's PREJUDICE and presuming that a member of a certain group will act in accordance to the stereotypes and not giving an individual the chance to prove themselves as an individual.

[PS: my opinions on gender/ queer theory are best captured in reference to Judith Butler's Gender Performativity. We're responsible ourselves for maintaining gender, defending against an attack on a gendered behaviour only continues to reinforce gender as a binary construct.)

[merkypie]

[word]

I'm just curious, what's your source for that statistic?

Here you go:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

Seems my numbers were off slightly (although, by now, they may be accurate), my apologies! Still seems pretty applicable!

I wasn't going to get involved but I just wanted to say that I think a single girl deciding to go and become a mechanic does FAR more to break down gender stereotypes and further equality than every single feminist theory textbook ever written.

Continuing to frame the debate in terms of "us and them", using gendered language like "mansplain" hasn't helped and WON'T help. Nor will trying to use statistical difference between groups as somehow meaningful. It doesn't MATTER if 90% of women choose to be stay-at-home mums and men earn more than women so long as women have the CHOICE to forge their own life path and the CHANCE to succeed. The problem, IMO, isn't discrimination (which is recognising differences) rather it's PREJUDICE and presuming that a member of a certain group will act in accordance to the stereotypes and not giving an individual the chance to prove themselves as an individual.

Well-said, Shem! How appallingly foolish to attempt to define a gender's "success" in terms of financial wealth or perceived "power" in a corporation! Yet, this is the sort of thing that gender stereotyping ultimately leads to... applying gender stereotypes to "success" itself.

So women certainly do not hold NEARLY as much power as men in companies.

When I posted earlier, I was in a hurry, on my way to town to do a bit of shopping with MG. I don't feel like I gave your post the full response it deserved. Also, I spent a bit of time discussing the matter with MG, and she always has a way of making things clearer for me...

I am curious... Is this how you measure women's equality in society?

Consider Microsoft. One of the largest, richest, most powerful corporations in the world. Former CEO and current chairman: known MALE Bill Gates. And yet, consider his relationship with his wife, Melinda. She left the professional world to focus on raising their children. She is well-educated, capable, and intelligent. She could, in every conceivable way, hold her own in the corporate world. Should she not be considered a "success" because she has chosen to live such a life? Should her husband be considered a misogynist because he holds a corporate position of power while she focuses on her family?

If you take the two of them at their words, then it would seem that they view themselves very much as a team:

In my parents I saw a model where they were really always communicating, doing things together. They were really kind of a team. I wanted some of that magic myself.

We set out what's going to be our work time versus our foundation time versus family time, and we'll reassess that ... sometimes every week ... We talk a lot in our home together about where we're going, what I'm doing. I think this is very much a collaborative effort. We come at it from slightly different angles, but that's why it's a natural for us to do it together.

I think this is the best sort of attitude for any couple to possess. I'd like to think (and do) that MG and I posses and maintain such a working relationship. It is a partnership between two human beings, and it is awesome.

I am forced to wonder, mcfly, how many of those corporate CEOs you're offering as statistics "proving there is a patriarchy" are actually in committed, caring, collaborative partnerships with another human being (odds are, a woman). I wonder how many of their partners love their position in life and wouldn't trade with their partners for anything....

Women are told how to act and dress and to be beautiful and flawless and everything that you also agreed is a problem, but they have almost NO control over those standards being shoved on them.

As I said before, I didn't agree that this was a problem, and I actually don't agree with a single part of that statement. Consumers have ALL the control over the media they consume. They could always turn off the TV, you know. Or they could watch something else. My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, for example, is an excellent, empowering, and extremely entertaining show. And the cast members all look a lot like horses. I highly recommend it!

All I did was clarify what mansplaining means and say that it's a word that exists only in the context of privileged classes in a gender-biased society.

This is another example of you revealing your sexist bias. You view men as part of a "privileged class," which I find quite disturbing. I simply do not believe it's true. I believe that sometimes men receive preferential treatment... and that sometimes women receive preferential treatment. I think it's important to choose your battles. Finding great evil where, in truth, increasingly little actually exists is something you seem to be pretty good at.

Consider this: women live, on average, 5-10 years longer than men (amongst developed/industrialized nations). There are various reasons for this, but it seems fairly safe to assume that, were men actually "privileged" as much as you claim, this statistic might be a *bit* different....

...but also EVERYONE makes a concentrated effort not to perpetuate harmful stereotypes? That's what I support...

Do you? Do you really? Quite honestly, it seems that pretty much everything you've said has done nothing but reinforce harmful stereotypes--painting women as victims of an oppressive, patriarchal society, painting men as universally sexist, misogynistic buttholes, and painting people who have turned their backs on such stereotypes as "ignorant." I am appalled by your behavior, but after a few discussions with MG, I find myself empathizing more with you. That is one of the greatest additions that MG brings to my life. She is a far more compassionate person than I, and I shall be forever grateful to her for such a gift.

I think discussions like this are important, because they make EVERYONE think critically about where they stand on these issues and how they want to change to make a society that they think is best.

MG pointed out that you're probably unaware of what you're doing; that your view of men has been so warped by your life experiences that you may be incapable of seeing them in anything other than a negative light. It may be that any comment made by a man is, in your mind, to be considered only in a sexist, negative, stereotypical context. If that's so, then I should feel sympathy for you, not anger. I am especially irritated by what I perceive to be willful ignorance, which is what I felt you've displayed in this thread. MG's reminder that I can view things in a compassionate light helps to tame my irritation. It may be that there are reasons behind your ignorance, and it may be that it is psychologically quite difficult for you to realize what you are doing (Dunning-Kruger effect, perhaps?).

I like your statement, though. We all should be thinking critically about these issues. I regularly make every effort to do so. Had a very long discussion with MG about it. I can and do occasionally change my opinions based on what is posted here and on ITIL. People's intelligent comments make me think about things. Sometimes, I decide that I was wrong. Sometimes, I decide I was right in the first place. In this case, I stand by everything I've said.

And bringing up that it's a problem isn't reinforcing the problem, it's recognizing negative patterns in our lives and society.

I believe quite the opposite. Finding evil where there is none IS a negative pattern, and it's the worst of the many patterns that I believe you are perpetuating here. I want to be compassionate, though. In the awareness of the benefits of such an emotion, all I can feel for you is pity. I wish you could see the world as MG and I do. It's a wonderful, wonderful place.

But it's all on a spectrum of normalized stereotyping, so when does it become okay to bring up discrimination? Only when it becomes physical? Or never, because there is no patriarchy and all women's problems are directly comparable to if the same thing happened to a man?

This is an area where, again, you're projecting your own prejudices on others around you. What if those others around you didn't view the world through the cynical filter of "normalized stereotyping" that you're describing? What if we just saw human beings for what they were: competent, capable, well-meaning, intelligent individual beings seeking to make their way in the world as best they can? You are a relic, McFly. Find Doc Brown and go back to 1985! We future folks are capable of identifying prejudice when we see it, and we are quite capable of dealing with it in an appropriate manner.

It's about real problems that continue to exist even outside of social justice forums and political rallies.

Of course there are still real problems plaguing our world. There always will be. Ultimately, they will be dealt with by individuals behaving an a collectively positive, beneficial manner. I'm an optimist, I guess. You are a pessimist. Such is life, I suppose.

You actually seem to believe that there isn't really a problem, and you deserve to know that there IS a problem...

Again, I do acknowledge there is a problem. Once, it was a severe problem. It is improving every day. It remains a problem because of sexually prejudiced individuals. You are one of these individuals, I believe, and it pains me that you don't see it.

I would be happy if you would be willing to at least look it over.

You put a lot of effort into that post, and I sincerely appreciate it. I will endeavor to always respond with a similar effort to anyone who offers me a sincere and worthwhile argument, even if I firmly believe it is completely wrong.

Because people see this stuff, especially from someone who does normally give really great and solid advice about all sorts of stuff about JET, and they assume that "hey, I guess there really isn't so much of a problem, let's just give it ten years."

I believe that most JETs and applicants got to where they are in life because they are proactive, positive, forward-thinking young adults, and that they seek to be a part of the solution/evolution, rather than mere bystanders. I suppose your opinion of the readers of this forum is significantly lower than mine. I am so sorry you feel this way.

All in all, I believe your heart is in the right place, mcfly. You're no chicken. You're a fellow whale biologist, and I admire this about you. I hope you can have the courage and critical thinking ability to consider what I've said here, and to consider what you've really said here. Who is really perpetuating negative stereotypes? Who is really a part of the problem, and who is really working toward bringing about real, meaningful social change.

I am only an individual, a small, insignificant man, but every day, I do everything I can to be a positive, if tiny, force in this world. I surely have the best, most satisfying job in the world, I think. I love being a teacher.

I stand by my previous statement that you are being ignorant. I don't toss around that term lightly. To me, to be "ignorant" means to be willfully unaware. I think you are being willfully unaware of just how negative you are being, and how, even inadvertently, you are perpetuating the very stereotypes you claim to resent so much.

[word]

So I don't seem like a totally ungrateful jerk, I just thought I'd drop by here to say:

It's really nice to hear from the one person whose opinion matters most: the OP!

If I get un-lazy I'll update my original post with the useful information in case current/future JETs have similar concerns so they don't have to wade through the drawn out, albeit epic, debate.

You are awesome. If history is any indication, odds are the mods will delete most of this, anyway.

Finally, I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm a hermit hiding in my closet, have anxiety attacks walking to my local conbini, or allow it to interfere with my interactions with students. I do leave my house, but I often leave my confidence behind. It's like being that person with the broccoli stuck in her teeth or the booger hanging out her nose - except being aware of it and not being able to do anything about it! But beyond that, if you've ever had bad acne you know it's not just a matter of appearance - it can actually be pretty physically painful which, for me, is the tipping point of needing to seek more effective treatment.

This actually makes me feel a lot better about the whole thing! I know it's hard, but I sincerely hope you manage to accomplish everything you need to regain your sense of confidence. Your health and well-being are very important, and I applaud your efforts to improve the both of them. Best of luck to you!

[pnksweater]

I am curious... Is this how you measure women's equality in society?

Consider Microsoft. One of the largest, richest, most powerful corporations in the world. Former CEO and current chairman: known MALE Bill Gates. And yet, consider his relationship with his wife, Melinda. She left the professional world to focus on raising their children. She is well-educated, capable, and intelligent. She could, in every conceivable way, hold her own in the corporate world. Should she not be considered a "success" because she has chosen to live such a life? Should her husband be considered a misogynist because he holds a corporate position of power while she focuses on her family?

I am less concerned about Melinda Gates and how successful she is perceived. I am more concerned with how Bill Gates would be perceived if he had decided not to pursue a life in the business/tech world and instead focus on raising awesome kids. I will be satisfied with the state of gender equality when men can take on traditionally female roles and not get a ribbing about it from other men. My two yen.

OP, changing climates and diets can do strange stuff to your skin. Even a change in water quality can screw with my hair and skin. Hopefully you’ve gotten access to the medicine you need. If you (or someone else) are looking to try new products for your skin that won’t irritate it I have had good luck with the basic olive oil based soap and cleansing oil produced by DHC. You can find it just about everywhere in Japan, including the convenience store. Even better are some of the super gentle soap free cleansers from LUSH. Mail order is a wonderful thing and I’ve always been pleased with the service. If you don’t have a Japanese credit card, you can do COD.

[Shem]

I am less concerned about Melinda Gates and how successful she is perceived. I am more concerned with how Bill Gates would be perceived if he had decided not to pursue a life in the business/tech world and instead focus on raising awesome kids. I will be satisfied with the state of gender equality when men can take on traditionally female roles and not get a ribbing about it from other men. My two yen.

This.

I think a lot of remaining gender equality is not about women doing "male" roles, but about men being able to perform "female" roles without fear of being seen negatively. Being emotional/ irrational isn't "negative" (though it can be in certain contexts), nor is being a nurse/teacher/maternal figure any worse than being a doctor/lawyer/paternal figure. Men still can't wear skirts, makeup or be intimate with each other (outside of sports contexts), even if women can wear jeans, flannel shirts and be "manly". Society still embraces the notion that traditionally female behaviours are "weaker" and so men often don't engage in them. Breaking that down is every bit as important, if not more so, than female CEOs.

As for theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_performativity

Judith Butler is amazing... I think she has a really good grasp on gender and queer issues, unlike a lot of theorists. She recognises kind of what we've been saying in this thread- that gender roles are reinforced by continuing to perform them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q50nQUGiI3s

[word]

I am less concerned about Melinda Gates and how successful she is perceived. I am more concerned with how Bill Gates would be perceived if he had decided not to pursue a life in the business/tech world and instead focus on raising awesome kids. I will be satisfied with the state of gender equality when men can take on traditionally female roles and not get a ribbing about it from other men. My two yen.

I think a lot of remaining gender equality is not about women doing "male" roles, but about men being able to perform "female" roles without fear of being seen negatively. Being emotional/ irrational isn't "negative" (though it can be in certain contexts), nor is being a nurse/teacher/maternal figure any worse than being a doctor/lawyer/paternal figure. Men still can't wear skirts, makeup or be intimate with each other (outside of sports contexts), even if women can wear jeans, flannel shirts and be "manly". Society still embraces the notion that traditionally female behaviours are "weaker" and so men often don't engage in them. Breaking that down is every bit as important, if not more so, than female CEOs.

Excellent points!

As for theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_performativity

Judith Butler is amazing... I think she has a really good grasp on gender and queer issues, unlike a lot of theorists. She recognises kind of what we've been saying in this thread- that gender roles are reinforced by continuing to perform them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q50nQUGiI3s

Interesting stuff; thanks for the links, Shem!

[phoenixphreak]

I love this thread too... but I don't know when I'll get a chance to catch up on the last 8 or so posts. You guys are nuts! Not for your ideas or beliefs... per se. But just for your continued attention to this thing. I'll try to catch up on Tuesday when I'm back at my main school!

[cookiehearts]

uh, I have a question relating to the original purpose of this thread....

I keep reading that ladies are just having their pills sent over every month. Did you do the "drug permission slip" thingy and it was denied? Or decided to avoid the trouble of filling it out and just have it sent once a month. I ask because Im on the extended cycle and so it only comes in a 3 month supply so I cant have it sent to me every month and would hate if the government denied my request in bringing a year supply.

I take 3 packs together (no break) and usually have 6 packs shipped to me at a time every 2 months. I usually have it shipped with other random stuff and have never had any problems. Yeah it's a possibility they could hold it, but it's unlikely.

[sillysocks]

You actually seem to believe that there isn't really a problem, and you deserve to know that there IS a problem...

Again, I do acknowledge there is a problem. Once, it was a severe problem. It is improving every day. It remains a problem because of sexually prejudiced individuals. You are one of these individuals, I believe, and it pains me that you don't see it.
[/quote]

I have returned. You know what a great way to improve the rights of women are? By not expressing any negative opinions of how women are treated in society and keeping positive, chin up ladies! If you do express any negative opinions about men, or our patriarchal society you best be quiet because your ruining our impending progress. Progress only happens when don't challenge pre-conceived ideas, it's a fact! You just proved her point, when women bring up concerns about how women are treated, sexist language, privilege to some men, the reaction is EVERYTHING IS FINE, STOP COMPLAINING. Which to me translate to 'don't make me feel about my privilege! I can't handle the idea that I am at the top of the food-chain for the mere fact I was born a man'

You ARE privileged in ways that women are not, just as I am because I am white, I have access to higher education, my parents are middle class and so on. This whole woo-haa of 'men and women are privileged in different ways' is bull, you as a man have access to things that I don't, you don't have to worry so much about being raped, or people thinking you are incapable of certain things. That is your privilege. Own it.

It remains a problem because people find it difficult to imagine that there existence is built on pre-determined ideas of what certain races, classes and genders are capable of. You were not born as a clean slate on which you have all the control to write whatever it is you want. By challenging these ideas through dialogues such as this forum we can change those ideas of who certain groups of people are.

Also I don't say this lightly, but going over your posts it is you who needs to learn how to read without all your privilege getting in the way. You think you are being witty and sarcastic with your insightful comebacks, like 'you really hate women, don't you?', but actually it shows that you cannot handle your views being challenged without becoming petty and name-calling.

Also I think any respect for you I could have had disappeared after you used the word feminazi, because Rush Limbaugh invented that word. By the mere knowledge of that fact, you should never utter that word again because it will align you with an extremely hateful, racist, mysoginistic a-hole.

You wouldn't want that, would you?

[Gizmotech]

You actually seem to believe that there isn't really a problem, and you deserve to know that there IS a problem...

Again, I do acknowledge there is a problem. Once, it was a severe problem. It is improving every day. It remains a problem because of sexually prejudiced individuals. You are one of these individuals, I believe, and it pains me that you don't see it.

I have returned. You know what a great way to improve the rights of women are? By not expressing any negative opinions of how women are treated in society and keeping positive, chin up ladies! If you do express any negative opinions about men, or our patriarchal society you best be quiet because your ruining our impending progress. Progress only happens when don't challenge pre-conceived ideas, it's a fact! You just proved her point, when women bring up concerns about how women are treated, sexist language, privilege to some men, the reaction is EVERYTHING IS FINE, STOP COMPLAINING. Which to me translate to 'don't make me feel about my privilege! I can't handle the idea that I am at the top of the food-chain for the mere fact I was born a man'

It's a very interesting position you're putting forward, that the ONLY way to challenge pre-conceived ideas is to further promote them. Word is arguing for facts and argument to support the continued prevalence of these issues, not quiet subservience and unbridled optimism.

As a side point, I would love to feel awesome for having been born of a specific gender which enables me all success do to privilege, however I have yet to experience this feature of my existence. This would lead me to believe that either a) such privilege does not exist as it's not a privilege if I have to work for it or b) the thing hanging between my legs does not qualify me as "of the privileged gender".

You ARE privileged in ways that women are not, just as I am because I am white, I have access to higher education, my parents are middle class and so on. This whole woo-haa of 'men and women are privileged in different ways' is bull, you as a man have access to things that I don't, you don't have to worry so much about being raped, or people thinking you are incapable of certain things. That is your privilege. Own it.

This never happens to men at all. We are capable of everything and anything, at all times because we are awesome. It has never been thought, ever, that I could be bad at something because I am a man.

It remains a problem because people find it difficult to imagine that there existence is built on pre-determined ideas of what certain races, classes and genders are capable of. You were not born as a clean slate on which you have all the control to write whatever it is you want. By challenging these ideas through dialogues such as this forum we can change those ideas of who certain groups of people are.

Which people? Is it the people here arguing against women's rights? I think word has actually agreed to a large bias in favour of women, women's rights, and the gradual and progressive shift to a matriarchal society. Who in this forum are we trying to change ideas of... one individual who continues to express these ideas from their victim perspective.

Also I think any respect for you I could have had disappeared after you used the word feminazi, because Rush Limbaugh invented that word. By the mere knowledge of that fact, you should never utter that word again because it will align you with an extremely hateful, racist, mysoginistic a-hole.

You wouldn't want that, would you?

I think she might have you there word... not that I knew this either... except that wiki says he didn't coin it, he used it extensively.

Can I just ask one question to those people who feel men are privileged... what is your definition of the privilege and how can you best identify it? Furthermore, if your argument falls back on the issue of equality and success, can you indicate please what benchmarks and tools are representative in this? IE: is success determined through economic positions, power relationships, social status, and is equality measured through equal representation in ALL available jobs in the world or only certain professions which have traditionally been male dominated?

[Staticnz]

This conversation seems to be like arguing about global warming.

The vast, vast majority of data and scientists agree that global warming is occurring, though they may not agree on what's causing it or man's relation to it.

However people still come out and cite record snows, and say, SEE...it's COOLING...not WARMING. Which is blatantly ignorant bullcrap pretending to be an argument.

Now, this guy here, Word, seems like an insanely ignorant, hyper-sensitive, self-loving muppet, putting out random cut up bits of information and 'statistics' to say that gender inequality isn't true...

...which is a RIDICULOUS assertion. Now, I could sit here and show you the overwhelming evidence of gender inequality, and the fact that even if it WEREN'T occurring in the USA (which it is by the way), there's like an entire damn WORLD out there where gender inequality is RAMPANT. At the very least are you gonna say Africa and the Middle East are some kind of paradise, or that none of those cultural problems have an impact on the American system, not to mention history. This is akin to saying don't worry about racial inquality cos they ended slavery. It's ignorant crap.

And every time that I've seen Word comes back with this ridiculous hyper sensitivity about himself, and has to talk endlessly about how smart, and 'New Age' he is.

You're not supposed to insult people, it's against good forum behavior, so I'm breaking the law, but he's an obvious, ignorant doofus.