Overuse of "Gaikokujin" and "Foreigner"

[James Forsyth]

Thanks for your thoughtful and courteous reply William!

I'll just add the following two points about my own background to give you a bit of context:

I'm an Australian, where (even though there are *more* "foreigners") we hardly ever use the word.

I've spent much more time in China than Japan, where I felt that the word "foreigner" was dragged into almost every conceivable conversation.

[teabot]

this is not at all in lines with the current flow of discussion, but here's a reason why i don't like "foreigner" that much (even 外国人, to some extent, though there's obviously a lot less to complain about there). of course it seems to me to exemplify an us-vs-them way of thinking, which is probably the case more often than not. however, i'd much much prefer to be referred to by my specific nationality if one must make the distinction.

i feel that in the cases where someone i am in regular contact with knows my nationality (like the teachers at my school, for example) it would be more appropriate to be called アメリカ人 or likewise rather than "that foreigner over there." i think that many Japanese people tend to treat "gai[koku]jin" as one group. my actions/habits/speech/culture are obviously not going to be accurately reflective of people from India or Africa, much less England or Australia, who are also lumped in with me under the nebulous terminology of 外国人. in the case where a person's nationality is not known or specified (or when talking about a group of people with various nationalities), then it's fine, of course, but i feel like being a bit more specific than just "not Japanese" is better when discussing individuals at the very least. i think "foreigner" a hinderance to international understanding and hence internationalization i think, and as was earlier stated, gives the impression of a somewhat xenophobic worldview.

of course, like others, i'm not expecting this to change anytime soon, but it's something to think about, i guess.

[teabot]

i feel that in the cases where someone i am in regular contact with knows my nationality (like the teachers at my school, for example) it would be more appropriate to be called アメリカ人 or likewise rather than "that foreigner over there." i think that many Japanese people tend to treat "gai[koku]jin" as one group

I laughed when reading your post because my wife (who teaches at elementary schools) experienced something last year that very clearly illustrates your point. One of the students had something written in romaji and took it to their teacher, who then referred them to my wife to translate it for them... except this was written in Portugese (my wife cooperated and plugged it into google translate and got them the meaning). The thing is though that all foreign languages are lumped together in elementary school, so they don't actually study Eigo (English), instead they study gaikokugo (foreign languages). This is wrong on so many levels, starting with the fact that English is by no means the only language in the world.

I don't get too fussed about it, but I do have concerns that this Japan (Japanese) vs the rest of the world (English?!?!?) is started so early in Japanese children's lives and no doubt accounts for the "I don't speak English, I'm Japanese" that so many of us hear at high school level.

absolutely. while playing a "categories" game with my eikaiwa club yesterday, the category was food, and almost one after another, i got "escargot," "chou creme" (which should actually be "chou a la creme"), and "marron."

the "it's katakana, so it must be English," attitude is something that i think is very problematic and i strive to point out whenever i can while teaching. i don't think it will make much of a difference, but i'll keep at it anyway...

i don't actually think that the elementary approach in theory is that bad, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. they should be learning about other cultures and peoples in authentic and appropriate ways, but when kids are basically learning how to say "hello" in a smattering of some languages, and then otherwise studying English for the most part, calling it "international studies" or whatever is inaccurate and pointless. i get the impression this has changed slightly with the new elementary text, but i haven't actually seen the book much at all to know for sure.

but yeah, that's just one of the many ways where Japan seems to view the world as, "well, here's Japan, and there's everyone else." it's very problematic, but i hope it will improve as it seems to have been doing at least in small steps over the past couple years.

[Gizmotech]

Adding a support for the "all Katakana must be English" stuff.

I'm a firm believer that Katakana is one of the biggest reasons, if not the biggest reason, that English education is sluggish at best. They get this impression in their heads that because they know all these katakana words that they therefore must know quite a few English words. They seem incapable of realizing that katakana is borrowed from LOTS of different places, and beyond that they really have no idea AT ALL that their katakana words have been rather drastically altered to serve their purpose in Japanese.

This example is from my eikaiwa. We were talking about adding morphemes to regular nouns to explain things like googled and such. We were showing all types of examples of this. Then we briefly talked about "meiru". I asked them to define it for me. "To send a text/e-mail". I said in English that means to get some paper, an envelope, and give it to a post man (yes I realize it also has the e-mailed definition, but generally only in context). Their minds BLOWN. They had memorized a reduced katakana form and thought it was English. Same thing happened in my "words" class over spring break. I asked them to tell me what they thought system was. Okay definition, then I asked them to define ecosystem. I got recycling technologies as the definition, as they've memorized the japanese "ehko" as ecological conservation and think it means the same thing in English.

I'd be a BIG fan of tossing katakana out the window and replacing all "borrowed" katakana words with their actual English versions with correct spelling. Then the kids might learn something.

GAH HAIR PULLING OUT RAWR.

[Musashi]

This is crazy, but I just read these last 2 posts and the word pedantic literally just appeared in my head. I never use that word. You guys must have really tickled my gray matter. lol

[KIKKI.K]

This is crazy, but I just read these last 2 posts and the word pedantic literally just appeared in my head. I never use that word. You guys must have really tickled my gray matter. lol

hey come on, now that it's back to being civil, it's been a good read :p

[OsakaAmerican]

I assume you are asking for an example of "...when unnecessary distinctions are made between "foreigner" and "Japanese."

Maybe you mean that this never actually happens because you hardly ever hear the terms "foreigner"/"外国人" anyway, and therefore, since you're doubtful it ever occurs and therefore you ask for an example.

On the other hand, maybe you acknowledge that these terms are used quite often in many different contexts but that the distinctions are, in fact, necessary. Therefore, you are asking for an example in which these terms make unnecessary distinctions because you don't think they do.

If the latter is what you are trying to say, then I'd be surprised that you're actually asking for an example. Unless the person works for the department of immigration, or is speaking about some narrow specific context in which the referent's nationality (or lack thereof, which is basically what foreigner"/"外国人" mean) then we have "...unnecessary distinctions ... made between "foreigner" and "Japanese.""

If you really think a distinction is necessary, I'd be curious to know when you think it is necessary. Surely not to determine who should be granted entry to bathhouses?

The latter. I was interested in how you defined, necessary and unnecessary, and I'd dispute that it is irrelevant anywhere except the department of immigration. Unless their understanding of Japanese culture and the Japanese language is amazing then it is a fair assumption that most foreigners don't completely understand a lot of situations, and that allowances need to be made. One can hardly regard a foreigner as "lacking a sense of humour" for not laughing at a pop culture reference to an Osaka comedian, and in that context, as well as many others, it would be a valid observation that someone is foreign and just didn't get the pop culture reference. Similarly there are specific laws that apply to foreigners, such as salary conditions, the requirement for a visa, and so forth, and so someone being a foreigner can be relevant in a wide range of areas outside of just the immigration office.

I do agree that it crosses the line when someone attempts to exclude you from a bar, onsen or hotel, and that the term can be used in an offensive manner, however drawing the line at the exit to the immigration office does seem a little extreme. Surely someone can comment that you're foreign without causing offence?

Sorry for the delayed response again. I was actually confused by your question, William, because I thought that examples were not only in my original post, they were the reason I started this thread in the first place. So I decided to not answer right away.

Thanks James, for the clarification question. I still think I had some good examples in the original post. I didn't like that distinctions were drawn in that way, and found it fairly ironic that the use of 「外国人」came up several times in a single sentence while talking about 多文化共生 stuff. (BTW, the result was that they let me keep my own not-quite-so-exact English translation, but the Japanese was not changed -- not that I expected it to be. Small victories! I'm happy enough.)

I can't think of ALL the situations it is appropriate and ALL the situations where it is not appropriate to use "gaikokujin," but as you mentioned, things like laws are obviously contexts where you would make a distinction.

Cultural situations are a lot hazier. It's a case-by-case context, but taken as a whole, I notice that there is an overuse of "gaikokujin." As I've mentioned before, I'm especially sensitive to this issue because I am a foreigner here, and to a certain extent I am also Japanese. And I don't even mean I'm just Japanese by blood or name. My parents raised me in a Japanese environment, I ate Japanese food every day growing up (I've loved natto ever since I can remember), I speak Kansai-ben natively, and as far as my parents were concerned, we were all Japanese. It's been an interesting experience hanging out with all the other JETs here, because they've made me notice things that I've never thought to notice, wonder, or be amazed by, because it's always been part of my life.
But time and again, I find that people categorize me into "Japanese" or "gaikokujin," and treat me accordingly. So what exactly are they asking me when they ask if I am 日本人? Because I'm not sure they know either. I've had people flat-out not "accept" me as a "gaikokujin." Conversely, I've also had people suddenly start talking to me slower and asking me if I can east sashimi as soon as I tell them that I'm an American.
Also, there is the point teabot made too. There are lots of different kinds of foreign people in Japan. And yet, I've had people tell me with absolutely no sense of irony (after I've told them that I'm an American) that it is difficult to tell apart the "gaikokujin." I've also heard from many non-English country CIRs (like Russia and Germany...not Korea or China) that people would keep insisting on speaking to them in English despite their own Japanese being better than their English.

What am I trying to say? I think this language distinction speaks to larger cultural and even legal issues of the inclination to separate people. Recently, my husband and I were checking into a hotel, and I was told that they would need my "companion's" passport, but not mine. I completely understand the hotel's standpoint, since there is a law and there was no way to know that I am foreign since I didn't change my name when I got married. But I think this illustrates the wider problem where this type of law is actually acceptable. Remember how controversial it was in the U.S. that Arizona wanted to start checking for "possible" illegal Mexicans driving around?

Believe it or not, I'm optimistic. There are a growing number of permanent residents here, and things will have to keep moving forward. I just want to do my part, however small, while I'm here.

[OsakaAmerican]

This is crazy, but I just read these last 2 posts and the word pedantic literally just appeared in my head. I never use that word. You guys must have really tickled my gray matter. lol

hey come on, now that it's back to being civil, it's been a good read :p

I never thought it got uncivil? Just people having a discussion.

[OsakaAmerican]

I've actually have very positive comments about my translation of some documents for the University where I work. I translated a series of sexual harassment posters, but I reworked a number of the statements into questions and then added comments on the translation explaining that this was designed to engage the reader, and they actually changed the Japanese to make it closer to my "translation". I am a poor translator though and tend to focus more on the intent than nuance than on an exact translation.

No, that makes you a GOOD translator! It's always a tricky balance between intent and accuracy.

As for the question of nationality I'd really say that is a question that only you can answer, and that only your answer really matters. I have dual nationality (South African and Irish), and I consider myself fully both, although my accent isn't Irish and I have spent far less time in Ireland than I have in South Africa. My heritage and cultural identity though is both Irish and South African. I was quite offended when I last visited South Africa and someone mistook me for an American (at least they didn't mistake me for English!) because I've picked up a bit of an accent from teaching so much American English. I thought about it for quite some time and decided that it didn't matter what other people though, so long as I knew who I was.

Interesting. So you can empathize a bit, then. Nationality is a technical word, though...I only have U.S. nationality now. But I am also culturally and linguistically much more American than Japanese. But people here seem to want more clarity than that, and that's where the battle is. I know who I am, but I'm not always able to express or explain it well to people. Going back to the "gaikokujin" thing, I've found that other first/second generation Americans of countries other than Japan have a much easier time accepted as "American" than I do. My theory is that it doesn't mess with the Japanese/non-Japanese binary so much if you are a "gaikokujin" whose family went from one gaikoku to another.

Actually for foreign residents they're not actually allowed to view any documentation for foreigners. Of course this is a strictly legal position, and normally I'd rather hand over my card than cause a fuss, however all they're actually entitled to is to be told that your husband is a foreign resident and so he doesn't need to produce any ID. This is another example of a number of misconceptions that Japanese people have about foreigners in Japan and their legal position. I'm not advocating making a huge fuss about this, but I think that it would nice if the prefectures took the opportunity presented by the change in the foreign registration system to clear up that only really the police have a right to see a foreigner's registration card since it contains personal information, and that the police only really have the right to request the card if they have a reason to suspect that the foreigner is engaged in some illegal activity.

I had no idea. Thank you for telling me and anyone else who might be reading.
Sure enough, I did a google search and found this: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fl20050308zg.html. Sorry it's an annoying Debito article, but that's what I could find. He does confirm my suspicions about the "foreign face" thing though. Wow, I'm kind of torn on this one. In my case, it was mostly uncomfortable that they explicitly told me that they didn't need *my* ID. I could probably just tell them next time that we're married, and they'd probably leave it at that since they'll assume he lives with me...but then that would be capitalizing on them assuming I'm a Japanese national, and that's problematic too. Hmm.

[KIKKI.K]

This is crazy, but I just read these last 2 posts and the word pedantic literally just appeared in my head. I never use that word. You guys must have really tickled my gray matter. lol

hey come on, now that it's back to being civil, it's been a good read :p

I never thought it got uncivil? Just people having a discussion.

not uncivil, but it seemed to get a bit heated especially when someone's children got involved :p