Vegetarians

[Trudi]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 204175134/

Warning you now; this will be me in Japan!

[Musashi]

They'll have to call you moody Trudi.

[Musashi]

Uh, I just meant sustainable as in a sustainable diet that doesn't sacrifice your physical and mental health.

Except every study ever disagrees with you. As does the Harvard School of Public Health. Just sayin'. You can eat animal products and it don't make no nevermind to me, but don't pretend it's good for your health. At best, small amounts don't hurt... but they certainly don't help anything.

I generally try to avoid this debate, because I truly don't care what other people do... but argh. The misinformation. And the attempt to cast vegans as spoiled, frail hippies. Arrgh.

Haha, well I don' care either. Actually I believe humans don't need much meat protein at all. One of my all time favorite books is born to run, and they give a nice run down why a having a meat heavy diet is bad for you.

I just gotta laugh at vegetarians new to Japan since there is quite a learning curve if you want to actually eat out. I have a vegetarian friend who ate Ramen for 3 weeks straight before someone finally told him its basically made of pork and lard noodles. lol

Anyhow in Scott Pilgram vs the World, you Vegans have super powers. Just don't break the 3 strikes rule.

[Trudi]

They'll have to call you moody Trudi.

Meh...I've been called worse!

[hatefulsandwich]

The thread is threatening to be derailed by the yawn-worthy arguments for and against meat. I thought this was going to be an informative topic about getting along as a non-meat-eater in Japan, not a place to insult and bait people for their personal choices. I imagine this kind of thing would go down well at that other forum that we all love for its free-range opinions.

[Gizmotech]

The thread is threatening to be derailed by the yawn-worthy arguments for and against meat. I thought this was going to be an informative topic about getting along as a non-meat-eater in Japan, not a place to insult and bait people for their personal choices. I imagine this kind of thing would go down well at that other forum that we all love for its free-range opinions.

I think you need to look at musashi is saying more closely. His opinion matches quite closely what the Japanese people around you think/feel about the topic. It's good to be exposed to this now because ideological reasons for doing something that seem contrary to the norm don't fly with Japanese people. In their world we have access to a meat protein supplement, a grain based main, and vegetable sides in a staple meal. Yes, they know what it is, but very few can come to the same ideological rationalization for not consuming meat.

Also his point about learning extensively what is in certain foods is very important. As he mentioned, though ramen "looks" like a standard noodle, it really isn't and the entire meal is pretty anti-vegetarian. Same with Vegie Champon in Kyushu. However soba is quite healthy for you relatively speaking and vegi friendly (the dipping sauce however, is not).

The best advice for a vegi in Japan is quite simple. Learn to read Japanese, quickly. Learn to use rakuten to order your own products for your own purposes, and figure out what grows in your area in abundance and plan your meals accordingly. I lived off of cheap cabbage for almost a month which was FANTASTIC, as that was the local harvest. The month before I was enjoying aubergines with every meal. Recently it's been asparagus and bok-choy for some reason, as they've been super cheap. I plan my meals around one substantial, cheaply available food, and go from there. Sadly, unlike at home, tomatoes aren't really "cheap" here from what I've seen, so spaghetti sauces have been pretty much out

[Jitensha12]

hatefulsandwich wrote:The thread is threatening to be derailed by the yawn-worthy arguments for and against meat. I thought this was going to be an informative topic about getting along as a non-meat-eater in Japan, not a place to insult and bait people for their personal choices. I imagine this kind of thing would go down well at that other forum that we all love for its free-range opinions.

I think you need to look at musashi is saying more closely. His opinion matches quite closely what the Japanese people around you think/feel about the topic. It's good to be exposed to this now because ideological reasons for doing something that seem contrary to the norm don't fly with Japanese people. In their world we have access to a meat protein supplement, a grain based main, and vegetable sides in a staple meal. Yes, they know what it is, but very few can come to the same ideological rationalization for not consuming meat.

I understand what you are saying here, Gizmotech, and thanks for your voice. Where I have an issue is that this thread has been bombarded with critical advice like, "it's going to be so tough you'll never stay veg," "you need to learn the language fast or you won't get by," "vegans are completely doomed in Japan," "you can never eat out" etc etc... which is why I was compelled to post in the first place. To me, this topic is not about pointing out these obvious hurdles and focusing on these negative viewpoints (that we really have heard again and again), but about sharing useful resources and personal experience for those of us wanting to STAY vegan/vegetarian in Japan and overcome those hurdles.

I am completely realistic about my expectations moving to Japan as a vegan (which is a point I think we should all be at, of course), but I also think this should be a safe space for veg-people to discuss this issue and keep an overall positive tone... If someone has constructive advice or personal anecdotes about their experiences being veg in Japan, I'm sure we would all love to hear that! Please also post helpful websites and blogs of others having success staying veg in Japan and links to recipes or great cookbooks. Anyone posting on here that isn't veg and hasn't ever tried to be veg in Japan, probably doesn't have much to add to the conversation that is new and enlightening.

[Musashi]

I kinda feel like a jerk now. I'm not normally overly sensitive posting online. :p All I was pointing out is that to be vegetarian or vegan isn't just about picking up a book or joining a FB group, and when you move to Japan all is good/easy transition.

I'd say non vegitarian ALT's and Japanese will be supportive of you, but as far as picking their brains for menu advice, or whatever might not be overly reliable. Japan will definitely throw some hurtles at you, and sometimes senpai ALT's/Japanese won't understand and might accidentally feed you stuff you normally wouldn't eat.

So I was just kinda saying you guys should be mentally prepared to accidentally break your diets since it will probably inevitably happen at some point by accident.

[Gizmotech]

I understand what you are saying here, Gizmotech, and thanks for your voice. Where I have an issue is that this thread has been bombarded with critical advice like, "it's going to be so tough you'll never stay veg," "you need to learn the language fast or you won't get by," "vegans are completely doomed in Japan," "you can never eat out" etc etc... which is why I was compelled to post in the first place. To me, this topic is not about pointing out these obvious hurdles and focusing on these negative viewpoints (that we really have heard again and again), but about sharing useful resources and personal experience for those of us wanting to STAY vegan/vegetarian in Japan and overcome those hurdles.

WHAT? This was the OP:

Any vegetarians going to Japan?
I've heard it's really hard as they use fish stock in a lot of things.
Any advice?

You might want that, but the question wasn't "what are great resources for Vegi's/Vegans" It was "Any advice?". The advice that has been provided has been quite on point and not thread-bombed at all. Obviously there has been a range of opinions provided, but this conversation has been rather civil. Pointing out the hurdles is very important, because though you might know all the hurdles, other Vegi's/Vegans might not be aware of the rather drastic requirements to maintain the diet they will have to go through. Noone is advocating you give up being a Vegi/Vegan, just be prepared to make some sacrifices. 90% and safe is better than 100% and suffering.

I am completely realistic about my expectations moving to Japan as a vegan (which is a point I think we should all be at, of course), but I also think this should be a safe space for veg-people to discuss this issue and keep an overall positive tone... If someone has constructive advice or personal anecdotes about their experiences being veg in Japan, I'm sure we would all love to hear that! Please also post helpful websites and blogs of others having success staying veg in Japan and links to recipes or great cookbooks. Anyone posting on here that isn't veg and hasn't ever tried to be veg in Japan, probably doesn't have much to add to the conversation that is new and enlightening.

You're assuming quite a bit here, not everyone WILL be at the same point you are at. Many likely haven't given much thought to the technical difficulties which will come from living in Japan as opposed to their home countries. Basic assumptions like "contents of a grocery store" which you just dismiss in your head as a prepared vegetarian, might now be coming to light after some of these discussions in others.
If you're looking for "safe-spaces" I'm afraid you're out of luck and you'd better get used to the fact you won't have one while in Japan, besides maybe your bathroom. Your privacy will be invaded, your personal space will be attacked, your history and life will be for all the world to see. Better to tough up now and be ready to go, rather than hope for a safe-place to hide in. We've been rather tame, the Japanese will not be.

Finally, I take quite a bit of personal offense to your final statements. I am not a vegetarian. I do not try to be one here. I do however cook a lot of food for myself, and deal with dietary restrictions which mean that I actually know QUITE A BIT. I also am a huge fan of vegetable based meals (where the veggies are the main dish,with meat/protein on the side) and if you asked a question rather than waiting for info to be posted, I might be able to tell you about some things

[NiigataPAKatrina]

Just to throw in my experience- I'm essentially a life-long vegetarian, and I've lived in Japan for almost a total of 6 years now. I'm also lactose intolerant. Japan has come a long way even in my five years on JET. Just recently, I found a new product called Deats in my local Jusco/Aeon supermarket. It's marketed as a low-calorie alternative to meat, and it's made
with konnyaku (which is make from a weird potato-y thing) and okara (the waste from making tofu). I pretty much love it.
They also recently started selling tempeh there.
My veggie friends here have also done a lot of experimenting with making veggie burgers from okara. If you are creative, you can eat really well.
Finally, I don't know about claims that Japan was once mostly vegetarian, but I find that hard to believe because of the lack of farm land here. Current Japanese cuisine has some vegetables in it, but much less than any other country I've been to except for Germany. However, it is true that there was vegetarian cuisine for Buddhist monks called shojin-ryori (精進料理). When we have enkais, my office calls the restaurant and asks them to make a shojin-ryori meal for me, and most of the time they can. Chefs at nice restaurants should be used to it.

On the other hand, I've lost count of the times I've been told ham or bacon isn't meat...

[CaseyJ_AkitaPA]

If you're looking for "safe-spaces" I'm afraid you're out of luck and you'd better get used to the fact you won't have one while in Japan, besides maybe your bathroom. Your privacy will be invaded, your personal space will be attacked, your history and life will be for all the world to see. Better to tough up now and be ready to go, rather than hope for a safe-place to hide in. We've been rather tame, the Japanese will not be.

lolwut?

Just want to say that I disagree with this completely. I have lived in Japan for 5+ years now and been vegetarian for all of it and can say without a doubt that it was socially easier to be vegetarian in Japan than the US. (disclaimer: I'm pescetarian now, so it's a lot easier for me than most). But every time I have told someone that meat is a no-go they are like, "Oh, do you want to have my salad? Here is my tofu and extra edamame. Let me bend over to give you more food. By the way, is it because you are religious? No? Ok."

I just don't know where people get this idea that if you don't eat meat at enkais and you don't get hammered with your co-workers, then you will be ostracized. I have never been treated with anything other than respect and curiosity by my coworkers regarding what I eat, and I don't personally know anyone who will say differently. I have never once felt like "my personal space was attacked and my history and life was torn open for all the world to see." I am not implying that you haven't, just saying that what you experiences is far from universal across Japan.

[Jitensha12]

Finally, I take quite a bit of personal offense to your final statements. I am not a vegetarian. I do not try to be one here.

First...I didn't actually know you weren't vegetarian, so my comment wasn't directed at you personally in any way shape or form. It's really unfortunate that you took it that way, because your post about eating local vegetables based on the season was really great, and what I would consider "new and enlightening," as I said.

You might want that, but the question wasn't "what are great resources for Vegi's/Vegans" It was "Any advice?". The advice that has been provided has been quite on point and not thread-bombed at all. Obviously there has been a range of opinions provided, but this conversation has been rather civil. Pointing out the hurdles is very important, because though you might know all the hurdles, other Vegi's/Vegans might not be aware of the rather drastic requirements to maintain the diet they will have to go through.

If you're looking for "safe-spaces" I'm afraid you're out of luck and you'd better get used to the fact you won't have one while in Japan, besides maybe your bathroom.

I agree, some advice on this thread has definitely been on-point; but there are only so many times a person wants to read the same negative take on what our experience in Japan will be before we're looking for more substance. I understand if you guys just really want to drive it home that all vegetarians and vegans are going to need some serious tough skin to make it in Japan, but please give us a little more credit. The first thought on anyone's mind who has a special dietary need (even beyond veg) was probably "how am I going to make it in Japan on my ____ diet?" and then they'll do the appropriate research to find the answer. Because food is a necessary part of life, people tend to take it very seriously. I doubt anyone truly passionate about veganism is going to enter this experience as a JET without first arming themselves with all the necessary information--both good and bad. Whether they are getting that information on this thread, the other vegetarian thread, or doing their own independent research, they should all arrive at the same conclusion:

There will be a learning curve and some obstacles to overcome (like eating out, dealing with schools and neighbors, finding common ground in the community, being able to read labels in Japanese, etc)...this, by now, has been made abundantly clear. BUT what hasn't been made clear is that there are really helpful websites, books, blogs, and first-hand accounts that exist with information on dealing with those learning curves and overcoming many of those obstacles. All I'm suggesting is that we move past said hurdles and, with them still in mind, share these constructive and empowering resources with one another.

A safe-space doesn't mean a space free from challenging dialogue--but it shouldn't be a space that turns people away--and unfortunately I think that's what this thread was doing.

Maybe this will change?

[Liz Okinawa PA]

Agree with Casey.

My stories above were about misunderstanding, and I find them funny, because no one has EVER been rude, and Okinawa in particular is shocked at the idea of vegetarianism and runs on pork. After the waitress I mentioned served me her "tofu" dish with pork all over it, she was heavily embarrassed and went to make me a new meal at no extra cost, without my even asking. One school made sure to check that I could eat everything on the menu, making it special. At the very worst, I've gotten, "We're very sorry, we can't make this without meat," never rudeness or anger or even condescension.

I've gotten a lot of questions, but I'm always asked to go out with everyone and my entire co-working staff tends to call ahead and check things with wherever we're going, even changing locations if a place says everything has meat, even when I've protested I'm fine and can eat later!

[brainsteww]

On the other hand, I've lost count of the times I've been told ham or bacon isn't meat...

Maybe it has something to do with muscle vs. skin? Because "niku" (肉) means muscle, right? So beef is from muscle, ham/bacon are from the skin? Except I don't really know anything about meat, so I could be completely wrong XD

[brainsteww]

If you're looking for "safe-spaces" I'm afraid you're out of luck and you'd better get used to the fact you won't have one while in Japan, besides maybe your bathroom. Your privacy will be invaded, your personal space will be attacked, your history and life will be for all the world to see. Better to tough up now and be ready to go, rather than hope for a safe-place to hide in. We've been rather tame, the Japanese will not be.

lolwut?

Just want to say that I disagree with this completely. I have lived in Japan for 5+ years now and been vegetarian for all of it and can say without a doubt that it was socially easier to be vegetarian in Japan than the US. (disclaimer: I'm pescetarian now, so it's a lot easier for me than most). But every time I have told someone that meat is a no-go they are like, "Oh, do you want to have my salad? Here is my tofu and extra edamame. Let me bend over to give you more food. By the way, is it because you are religious? No? Ok."

I just don't know where people get this idea that if you don't eat meat at enkais and you don't get hammered with your co-workers, then you will be ostracized. I have never been treated with anything other than respect and curiosity by my coworkers regarding what I eat, and I don't personally know anyone who will say differently. I have never once felt like "my personal space was attacked and my history and life was torn open for all the world to see." I am not implying that you haven't, just saying that what you experiences is far from universal across Japan.

This is really great to know! We need more opinions from people who have actually spent time in Japan.